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Dr. Schurman-Kauflin Media Appearances
 Interview Transcript : CNN Live Today with Daryn Kagan - 05-03-2005 10:30 AM EST KAGAN: As we've been covering this story, both the arrest and then the proceedings against Dennis Rader, we've had a criminal profiler with us, Deborah Schurman-Kauflin. DEBORAH SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: That's right. KAGAN: Long name. Got to (INAUDIBLE). Wanted to bring you back because there's so many questions to talk to you about, about this man as a suspect, as a defendant now in the case in general. First of all, are you surprised that Dennis Rader would plead not guilty? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Not really, because people like this, they want to relive their crimes, and so this allows him to relive each homicide over and over and over again as each detail is paraded through the courtroom, and he gets more notoriety that way, which is what BTK had always craved. KAGAN: One thing that we saw happen that was interesting this morning, the district attorney came around to the desk, faced Dennis Rader, and talked about two more additional murders he will be charged with. These have been tacked on since his arrest earlier this year. When you were here earlier, you had said that you didn't think the current list of murders, of charges against Dennis Rader, would stand, that you expected there to be even more. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Right. KAGAN: And what do you base that on, based on your research of serial killers? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Just based on the fact that I work with police all over the world and I work these serial cases. And whenever you find certain victims, you just always know there's more, because they get better as they go forward with their murdering career. So with time, they get better at eluding police. So it's just a given when you see a certain number of victims, that in general, there are going to be more. KAGAN: What about this suspect, about this man, about this case fits what you know about serial killers? What is textbook? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Well, the interesting thing about him is he's good guy/bad guy, and a lot of times, serial killers, the more intelligent ones, will do altruistic things. KAGAN: He was a former Boy Scout, that he worked for the post office, that worked in security. People were shocked by that. You say oh, no, that's right in line with what you would expect. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Well, very intelligent serial killers will engage in those activities because it gives them a good cover. It's interesting, because I've studied serial killers for a long time, but I've also recently studied terrorism and terrorists, and they do the same thing. Groups like Hezbollah and Hamas run charities and soup kitchens in countries in order to have a good cover story for what they're doing, and serial killers, the intelligent ones, do the same thing. It allows them to blend in society a lot better. KAGAN: Dennis Rader has been charged in these crimes, of course not convicted. What about him does not fit the typical serial killer profile? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Well, actually most of it does, eerily. Yes, he was married. A lot of sadist are married. BTK was obviously a sadist who enjoyed the suffering of his victims. He had children. Most serial killers who are sadist have children. He was a little bit older when he first began committing his crimes. And he was employed, drawn to law enforcement, and this all fits in what we know with serial killers. KAGAN: So much of what you know of your work has come from actually sitting down, and interviewing and talking to serial killers. If you had that opportunity with Dennis Rader once, and if he's convicted, what would you want to know? What would you ask him? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: I would ask him why would he come back, and resurface and start communicating with law enforcement again, when he'd gotten away with it. And chances are, if he hadn't come back and began taunting police again, he would have gotten away with it. KAGAN: He would still be out there. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Yes. KAGAN: What's your own theory about why? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: I think that he craved the attention so much, he loved being BTK, that he wanted that power and control, and he wanted to terrorize people again, and that overwhelmed his sense of wanting to be free. KAGAN: It is a conflict that is fascinating, and we'll be watching as it continues to unfold, the justice system in Wichita, Kansas. Deborah, thank you for your insight. Always good to have you here for that. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Thank you. Interview Transcript : CNN Daybreak, Frank Buckley - 05-03-2005 5:30 AM EST (Interview originally taped on 03-02-05) ........Frank Buckley has more. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: BTK began today's letter with a question, "How many do I have to kill before I get a name in the paper or some national attention?" FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As the BTK killer murdered his victims, he taunted police with messages that ranged from a doll with a bag over its head, bound like his victims, to a call reporting one of his crimes,... UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "You will find a homicide at 843 South Pershing." BUCKLEY: ... to a word puzzle that might have led investigators right to the suspect's front door. Among the letters and numbers, 6220, that was the street address of one Dennis Rader. Right near those numbers, Radre, flip the last two letters and it reads Rader. DR. DEBORAH SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: If that's the case, it certainly would be a very cocky effort by the serial killer, if Rader is the BTK killer, putting that information right out for everybody to see, you know. Right in black and white, here's my address, here's my name. BUCKLEY: Dr. Deborah Schurman-Kauflin is a criminal profiler who's interviewed 17 convicted serial killers. She says the communications from BTK were attempts at attention. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: The BTK serial killer obviously feels that he's a god amongst serial killers. He feels that he is superior to law enforcement, that he's gotten away with the crimes for so long, and so that's why I believe that he kept sending materials in to law enforcement. He was saying I'm still out here, you know, why aren't you doing your job? Why aren't you catching me? BUCKLEY: Until now, many of these communications were kept secret. KAKE TV in Wichita, known as KAKE, was among the media outlets that received communications from BTK. The station passed the material to police and didn't reveal most of the contents. In the word puzzle that came to KAKE in May of last year, dozens of words and phrases, some of them connected, like odd, sex, details, follow, plan, fantasies, victim. The top half of the puzzle framed by prowl and go for it. And these words backwards at the bottom of the puzzle, handyman, wrong, also serviceman, lost pet. If Rader is BTK, as police claim, serviceman and lost pet take on added meaning. Rader was former Air Force. More recently, he was a dogcatcher. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: He seems to be communicating in this puzzle information about himself. It's as if he's giving a profile of himself in this and he's saying can you find me in here? Can you figure this out? BUCKLEY: Also included, copies of bogus ID cards from a telephone company and the Wichita school district. And again, in the puzzle, telephone, school, and written backwards, Wichita, fake ID. Is it possible the BTK killer was trying to throw investigators off his trail? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: You figure me out. My information is here, you figure out what's true, what's false and come find me. BUCKLEY (on camera): If the BTK killer thought he was frustrating police with the words and communications, he was wrong. Investigators believed they were learning something about the killer each time he sent a message. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Even though he was taunting and saying come find me, come get me, a lot of these serial killers, they simply don't believe that law enforcement is smart enough to find them. And that is always their downfall. BUCKLEY (voice-over): Schurman-Kauflin believes the BTK killer never intended to get caught. But Wichita police say that's exactly what happened with the arrest of their suspect Dennis Rader. Frank Buckley, CNN, Wichita, Kansas. Interview Transcript : CNN Live Today with Daryn Kagan - 03-02-2005 10:30 AM EST KAGAN: Dennis Rader's arrest comes shortly after an updated profile of the BTK killer was created. Our guest, Deborah Schurman- Kauflin, created that update for a Wichita TV station. She had created an original profile for the Discovery Channel back in 2000. Both BTK profiles are remarkable in their similarities to what we know about the suspect, Dennis Rader. Deborah Schurman-Kauflin joining me this morning as she's been profiling serial killers for 20 years. Good morning. DEBORAH SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN, VIOLENT CRIMES INSTITUTE: Good morning. KAGAN: We should say as we go about this discussion, of course, he is a suspect, he has been charged, but he's not been convicted of the crime. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: That's right. KAGAN: Yet, with that in mind, let's talk about some of the things that match up to the profile you came up with in 2000. The age. You thought -- you were predicting that this would be somebody younger than some people might have thought. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Right. A lot of people had profiled him as being in his late 30s at the time of the Otero murders. KAGAN: Back in the '70s. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Back in the '70s. Because, typically sadists tend to be in their late 30s to early 40s. KAGAN: And what was tipping you off that he was a little bit younger? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Well, even though the crimes were very sophisticated in that he was able to get in and get out without any detection, there wasn't as much torture as maybe BTK would have liked to think that there was. KAGAN: And we say that with asterix, because, of course the family members that are in so much pain from all this... SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: That's not to minimize that in any way. I'm just saying on a continuum of sadists... KAGAN: Of what you see. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: The older offenders tend to maybe hold their victims for days and torture them. KAGAN: And he was very quick, in and out. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: He was very quick, in and out. Yes. KAGAN: You predicted that this person would have a normal appearance, fit well in Wichita. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: That's right. Because they don't want to stand out. Serial killers want to blend in well. They don't want to raise red flags. And that's why they tend to be pretty neat in appearance and kind of keep a low-key profile. KAGAN: One thing that kind of really caught my attention, looking through your profile, a connection to dogs. This guy was the dog catcher in Park City, Utah. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Right. KAGAN: What was it about dogs that kind of caught your attention? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Well, typically, sadistic offenders want to associate themselves with anything that's considered masculine or manly. So I figured if this individual would have a dog, it would be a larger-type dog, that he would have a dislike of smaller-type dogs. These people have very low tolerance for the smaller dogs that bark a lot. This guy would be screaming in his mind when he would hear something like that. KAGAN: Some things that did not match up, and I'd like your reaction to, your surprise. You predicted that the BTK killer would not be married, would not have a lot of close friends. This is a man, long-time married, two children and very involved in his church community. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Well, it didn't surprise me that he was involved with his church community. That's a duality of the sadist -- sadistic serial killer. They often will put on this mask and go do charity work, do things that would look altruistic, but they do it -- I asked the serial killers that I interviewed... KAGAN: And you've interviewed 17 others on death row... SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: I've interviewed 17 others on death row, yes. Really nice guys. Why they did that, why they would be involved in charities or churches, and they always would say well, I decided when I was going to be good, I decided when I was going to be bad. And then with a smile one of them said to me, and if I ever got caught, that would look good for me. People wouldn't believe that I could do these crimes. KAGAN: Quickly, I want to ask you -- you created this profile. It goes to the Discovery Channel. The BTK killer took that and that was part of -- this profile was part of what was sent to one of these television stations, correct? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Well, actually, the profile -- David Lore (ph), who's a crime writer, asked me do this for the crime library. I was on the Discovery Channel. And then apparently, last year, the BTK killer himself took parts of this story, which included my profile, and sent it in to Wichita media. KAGAN: What's part of being part of his kind of sick game? Does that bother you? SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: A little bit. A little bit. KAGAN: Thanks for the insight. Very fascinating to see inside of the mind. Once again, Rader in this case has only been charged in the case, but still the similarities very frightening. SCHURMAN-KAUFLIN: Frightening. KAGAN: Deborah Schurman-Kauflin. Thank you for your time. And we're going to take a quick break. We will be back after this. (COMMERCIAL BREAK) |
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